>>>
we start with religion in politics, and with me now is pastor robert jeffress of the first
baptist church
in dallas, texas, who said
mitt romney
's not a christian and called
mormonism
a cult. let me get to those questions right off the bat. and let me convince you, first of all, i'm so glad to hear you're a fan of "hardball" and i appreciate that, sir. tonight i want you to just elaborate on those words. let's take a look at what you said friday at the
values voters summit
, and then you can elaborate on. here's part of your introduction for
rick perry
. let's watch.
>>
do we want a candidate who is a good, moral person? or do we want a candidate who is a born-again follower of the
lord jesus christ
?
rick perry
is a true leader. he is a true conservative. and he is a genuine follower of
jesus christ
.
>>
afterwards, you were asked to compare romney's faith to that of
rick perry
. let's watch what you said.
>>
rick perry
's a christian. he's an
evangelical christian
, a follower of
jesus christ
.
mitt romney
's a good, moral person, but he's not a christian.
mormonism
is not
christianity
. it has always been considered a cult by the mainstream of
christianity
. so it's a difference between a christian and a nonchristian.
>>
pastor, thank you so much for coming on. and i guess my only role here, since i'm a secular person involved with political discussions, to find out what you meant by that. in a secular contest. in other words, we're in the middle of a campaign, what relevance is it. the word "cult," would you use it again if you were asked the same question?
>>
yes, but i would clarify, like i did in that clip later on, i was talking not about a sociological cult, i'm talking about a theological cult. it's a fact,
mormonism
came
1800
years after
jesus christ
and the founding of the church.
mormonism
has its own human leader,
joseph smith
, its own set of doctrines, its own
religious book
, "the
book of mormon
," in addition to the bible, so in that way, it's a cult. i don't believe that they are
christians
. and by the way,
chris
, my view is not unique. "
usa today
" today cited a poll that said that 75% of protestant pastors do not believe
mormons
are
christians
. that's three out of four protestant pastors. and you know, there are people out there who want to try to paint me as the
jeremiah wright
of the right. my comments are not fanatical, it's just true that
mormonism
is not a part of historical
christianity
.
>>
websters
, here's what
websters
describes in a religious context what a cult is. a is system of
religious worship
or ritual, a quusy-
religious group
, often living in a colony, with a
charismatic leader
who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices, or beliefs. is that what you believe as a cult?
>>
well, i believe in more a --
>>
this is what
websters
says. so you disagree with this definition?
>>
i think it can be stand expand. ed. but you look at
brigham young
, and some parts of those definitions apply to that as well. but what i'm saying is to those of us who are
evangelical christians
, and remember,
chris
, that is to who i'm saying, there are a lot of reasons why to prefer
rick perry
to
mitt romney
. i believe that
mitt romney
is conservative out of convenience, while
rick perry
is one a conservative out of conviction. but to those of us who are evangelicals, when all other things are equal, we prefer competen
christians
to competent nonchristians, who may be good, moral people like
mitt romney
.
>>
but are you concerned at having what you consider a member of a cult in the
white house
? would you want a cultist in the
white house
? it's your word, not mine.
>>
i understand that. and that's why i've been very clear to say, if it comes down to a choice between
mitt romney
and
barack obama
, i'll probably hold my nose in the
general election
and vote for
mitt romney
. because i believe there are other criteria besides the person's faith. you know, i believe that
barack obama
is a christian.
>>
let's stick on this. you don't believe
mitt romney
is a christian, are you concerned about a particular thing he might do as president, as a member of a cult? do you believe he might do something -- no, seriously. he's a member of a cult, you say. you support other people for president, fine. but i want to get back to this. is your problem with
mitt romney
that he's a member of a cult, or he may not be a good member of the cult. because you hit it both way in your conversations, you suggested that he's not a good
mormon
. would you prefer a good
mormon
to someone who you think is not a good member of the cult?
>>
well, somebody stopped me in the hallway after the voters summit and said to me, pastor, my problem with
mitt romney
is not that he's a
mormon
, but that he's not a good enough
mormon
when it comes to the issue of abortion and
gay rights
and so forth. look, i think if it comes down to it, and this is why i brought up
barack obama
, i would rather have somebody in the
white house
who is not a christian, like
mitt romney
, who at least embraces some biblical values versus a professing christian like
president obama
, who supports unbiblical principles, like abortion.
>>
i understand. that's a political view. but just to straighten this out, because you made a lot of news on this, and i appreciate you coming on this program. we don't mine making news here either. you say that he's a member of a cult. you stick to that, right?
>>
yes. yes. a theological cult, i want to clarify that.
>>
are you concerned that any one of his theological cult beliefs sitting in the
white house
,
per se
. forget it's
mitt romney
. are you concerned about the very fact, come
january 2nd
,
2013
, that a member of a cult is in the
white house
? does that, in itself, concern you?
>>
no, i do not have that concern, because i think there are a lot of other things to be concerned about about
mitt romney
, and as we both just alluded to, i'm not sure he's that much of a practicing
mormon
. i don't know, be if he were a really devout
mormon
, i'm not sure how he could have held the views he did about abortion so long.
>>
what is wrong with
mormonism
?
>>
well,
mormonism
, first of all, has another revelation, the revelation of "the
book of mormon
," came 1,800 years after
christianity
. it uses a lot of the same language as
christianity
does. it talks about
jesus christ
, it talks about faith. but it's the
jesus christ
who came to
north america
in the
1800s
, not the
jesus christ
of the bible. it doesn't have the traditional belief about
heaven and hell
. it teaches a works-oriented type of salvation. so for those of us who are evangelicals, there is a difference. and as i cited in that poll, 75% of protestant pastors believe that there's a vast difference between
mormonism
and biblical
christianity
.
>>
last point on religion, it's not my strength, but let me ask you this, do you believe, as a christian, and you're a christian, do you believe that
mormon
people believe that
jesus christ
was god?
>>
well, you know what i've learned --
>>
you said, "well," is that the answer, well?
>>
no.
>>
do you believe they're
christians
, in other words? to that central point.
>>
well, i don't believe all baptists are
christians
. i'm a baptist, i don't believe all baptists are
christians
, all catholics are
christians
, or all
mormons
are
christians
. nobody goes to heaven in a group,
chris
. we go individually to
heaven or hell
, personally based on what we believe in
jesus christ
.
>>
you're very good at this, but this is called spin.
>>
no, it's not.
>>
i want to ask you, sticking to the issue of faith and belief.
>>
not all
mormons
believe what
mormons
believe.
>>
you know you've stirred up --
>>
-- all members of any faith.
>>
does it bother you that you've stirred up a bee's nest on this. that they hear the word "cult," they hear
charles manson
, they hear jonestown. they hear cult in the way i've described it in the dictionary of the
united states
, in webster's dictionary, as some group living in a colony with a
charismatic leader
that indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views. you say that's not the definition you use, but to american who is hear you, when they hear cult, i'm going to give you now a chance, say you didn't mean that kind of cult. say, i did not mean --
>>
okay, i will say that,
chris
. i will raise my right hand and say, i did not mean that kind of cult. i was talking about a theological cult. but let me add, if i could, that i think many of the people who are bothered with what i said about a cult are just as bothered when i sit here and say that
mormonism
is not
christianity
. so a lot of the reporters, they rushed me after my introduction, because they picked up on the fact that i was distinguishing a good moral person, like
mitt romney
, with a born-again follower of
jesus christ
. they knew what i was saying. they knew i was saying that
mormonism
is not
christianity
. and i think that's what the real issue is. not the cult issue.
>>
would you, in general parlance, would you always support, what you consider a born-again christian for the presidency against any other opponent? in other words, that's your position?
>>
no, i wouldn't say that. no. i would not say that.
>>
you say that's why you're for romney -- or that's why you're for perry, you said.
>>
no,
chris
, i gave a number of reasons i'm for perry, not just because of his faith. i believe he's a consistent conservative, i believe he's field in leadership, perhaps not rhetoric, but in leadership. and i think there are a number of reasons beyond his
christian faith
. and again, i think you've got a christian in
barack obama
, a professing christian, and a nonchristian in
mitt romney
, and i've said publicly i would vote for
mitt romney
if it comes down to that. but, remember,
chris
, we're in a primary season, and those of us who are
evangelical christians
, we have a chance to select a christian for our leader. and i want to remind people,
chris
, it was
john jay
, the first
chief justice of the united states supreme court
who said, we have as our duty and privilege to select and prefer
christians
as our leaders. having preference for
christians
over nonchristians is not being bigoted, it's a preference that we're allowed.
>>
let me read to you the
united states constitution
, what it says about religion and
political office
. article 6,
united states constitution
, which many people believe to be divinely inspired. the senators and representatives before mentioned members of the several
state legislatures
and all executive and judicial officers, both of the
united states
and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this constitution, but no
religious test
shall ever be required as a qualification for any office or
public trust
under the
united states
. sir, how else can -- i know you're a fundamentalist, so let's go to the strict meaning of this term. "no
religious test
shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or
public trust
." how can anyone of any religion read that anything -- as meaning anything else but what it says?
>>
chris
--
>>
"no
religious test
."
>>
chris
, certainly you understand the difference between government in posing a
religious test
and private citizens having any kind of
litmus test
they want to. are you suggesting that for me to prefer a christian over a nonchristian is a against the law or unconstitutional? that's absurd.
>>
no, no.
>>
no, article 6 is talking about the government cannot impose a
religious test
. you can impose any kind of test you want to.
>>
of course. anybody can have any preference or prejudice, of course we can.
>>
that's right, but you're misleading people in thinking it's unconstitutional.
>>
no.
>>
yes, you are.
>>
no. i'm just asking you if there's a higher value in what you're saying than what the constitution says. people can say i'm
italian american
so always vote for the
italian american
. i'm
black american
, always vote for the african-
american candidate
. everybody can do that. but that's not a high value. people can always say, i'm always going to support somebody of my religion. you can't say that what you're proposing, which is simply to vote your religion is somehow a higher value than any other prejudice, can you? it's just a prejudice.
>>
oh, i can say --
>>
yeah, but it's just a prejudice.
>>
do you think
john jay
, the author of the
federalist papers
and the first
chief justice of the supreme court
was a bigot? do you think that,
chris
?
>>
no, i'm just saying, do you think what you're saying is no different from someone saying, it's just another
religious sect
or cult or denomination that simply votes their nomination or cult or sect. it's just the same old kind of tribalism that we had in europe and we tried to leave behind. yes or no?
>>
well, first of all,
chris
, your viewers have just heard me say that i would vote for
mitt romney
in certain circumstances. so, obviously, i have other considerations. but to your question, is there a higher authority than the constitution? for me, as a christian, as a pastor, the answer is yes. it is the bible.
>>
you know, it's great to have you on, sir, and i think you're great. the way you talk on this show, i don't agree with you, but i think it's great that you come on and honestly reveal. you're not a tricky guy. not too tricky. thank you very much, pastor robert jeffress for coming
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44852981/ns/politics-decision_2012/
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