>>> we start with religion in politics, and with me now is pastor robert jeffress of the first baptist church in dallas, texas, who said mitt romney 's not a christian and called mormonism a cult. let me get to those questions right off the bat. and let me convince you, first of all, i'm so glad to hear you're a fan of "hardball" and i appreciate that, sir. tonight i want you to just elaborate on those words. let's take a look at what you said friday at the values voters summit , and then you can elaborate on. here's part of your introduction for rick perry . let's watch.
>> do we want a candidate who is a good, moral person? or do we want a candidate who is a born-again follower of the lord jesus christ ? rick perry is a true leader. he is a true conservative. and he is a genuine follower of jesus christ .
>> afterwards, you were asked to compare romney's faith to that of rick perry . let's watch what you said.
>> rick perry 's a christian. he's an evangelical christian , a follower of jesus christ . mitt romney 's a good, moral person, but he's not a christian. mormonism is not christianity . it has always been considered a cult by the mainstream of christianity . so it's a difference between a christian and a nonchristian.
>> pastor, thank you so much for coming on. and i guess my only role here, since i'm a secular person involved with political discussions, to find out what you meant by that. in a secular contest. in other words, we're in the middle of a campaign, what relevance is it. the word "cult," would you use it again if you were asked the same question?
>> yes, but i would clarify, like i did in that clip later on, i was talking not about a sociological cult, i'm talking about a theological cult. it's a fact, mormonism came 1800 years after jesus christ and the founding of the church. mormonism has its own human leader, joseph smith , its own set of doctrines, its own religious book , "the book of mormon ," in addition to the bible, so in that way, it's a cult. i don't believe that they are christians . and by the way, chris , my view is not unique. " usa today " today cited a poll that said that 75% of protestant pastors do not believe mormons are christians . that's three out of four protestant pastors. and you know, there are people out there who want to try to paint me as the jeremiah wright of the right. my comments are not fanatical, it's just true that mormonism is not a part of historical christianity .
>> websters , here's what websters describes in a religious context what a cult is. a is system of religious worship or ritual, a quusy- religious group , often living in a colony, with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices, or beliefs. is that what you believe as a cult?
>> well, i believe in more a --
>> this is what websters says. so you disagree with this definition?
>> i think it can be stand expand. ed. but you look at brigham young , and some parts of those definitions apply to that as well. but what i'm saying is to those of us who are evangelical christians , and remember, chris , that is to who i'm saying, there are a lot of reasons why to prefer rick perry to mitt romney . i believe that mitt romney is conservative out of convenience, while rick perry is one a conservative out of conviction. but to those of us who are evangelicals, when all other things are equal, we prefer competen christians to competent nonchristians, who may be good, moral people like mitt romney .
>> but are you concerned at having what you consider a member of a cult in the white house ? would you want a cultist in the white house ? it's your word, not mine.
>> i understand that. and that's why i've been very clear to say, if it comes down to a choice between mitt romney and barack obama , i'll probably hold my nose in the general election and vote for mitt romney . because i believe there are other criteria besides the person's faith. you know, i believe that barack obama is a christian.
>> let's stick on this. you don't believe mitt romney is a christian, are you concerned about a particular thing he might do as president, as a member of a cult? do you believe he might do something -- no, seriously. he's a member of a cult, you say. you support other people for president, fine. but i want to get back to this. is your problem with mitt romney that he's a member of a cult, or he may not be a good member of the cult. because you hit it both way in your conversations, you suggested that he's not a good mormon . would you prefer a good mormon to someone who you think is not a good member of the cult?
>> well, somebody stopped me in the hallway after the voters summit and said to me, pastor, my problem with mitt romney is not that he's a mormon , but that he's not a good enough mormon when it comes to the issue of abortion and gay rights and so forth. look, i think if it comes down to it, and this is why i brought up barack obama , i would rather have somebody in the white house who is not a christian, like mitt romney , who at least embraces some biblical values versus a professing christian like president obama , who supports unbiblical principles, like abortion.
>> i understand. that's a political view. but just to straighten this out, because you made a lot of news on this, and i appreciate you coming on this program. we don't mine making news here either. you say that he's a member of a cult. you stick to that, right?
>> yes. yes. a theological cult, i want to clarify that.
>> are you concerned that any one of his theological cult beliefs sitting in the white house , per se . forget it's mitt romney . are you concerned about the very fact, come january 2nd , 2013 , that a member of a cult is in the white house ? does that, in itself, concern you?
>> no, i do not have that concern, because i think there are a lot of other things to be concerned about about mitt romney , and as we both just alluded to, i'm not sure he's that much of a practicing mormon . i don't know, be if he were a really devout mormon , i'm not sure how he could have held the views he did about abortion so long.
>> what is wrong with mormonism ?
>> well, mormonism , first of all, has another revelation, the revelation of "the book of mormon ," came 1,800 years after christianity . it uses a lot of the same language as christianity does. it talks about jesus christ , it talks about faith. but it's the jesus christ who came to north america in the 1800s , not the jesus christ of the bible. it doesn't have the traditional belief about heaven and hell . it teaches a works-oriented type of salvation. so for those of us who are evangelicals, there is a difference. and as i cited in that poll, 75% of protestant pastors believe that there's a vast difference between mormonism and biblical christianity .
>> last point on religion, it's not my strength, but let me ask you this, do you believe, as a christian, and you're a christian, do you believe that mormon people believe that jesus christ was god?
>> well, you know what i've learned --
>> you said, "well," is that the answer, well?
>> no.
>> do you believe they're christians , in other words? to that central point.
>> well, i don't believe all baptists are christians . i'm a baptist, i don't believe all baptists are christians , all catholics are christians , or all mormons are christians . nobody goes to heaven in a group, chris . we go individually to heaven or hell , personally based on what we believe in jesus christ .
>> you're very good at this, but this is called spin.
>> no, it's not.
>> i want to ask you, sticking to the issue of faith and belief.
>> not all mormons believe what mormons believe.
>> you know you've stirred up --
>> -- all members of any faith.
>> does it bother you that you've stirred up a bee's nest on this. that they hear the word "cult," they hear charles manson , they hear jonestown. they hear cult in the way i've described it in the dictionary of the united states , in webster's dictionary, as some group living in a colony with a charismatic leader that indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views. you say that's not the definition you use, but to american who is hear you, when they hear cult, i'm going to give you now a chance, say you didn't mean that kind of cult. say, i did not mean --
>> okay, i will say that, chris . i will raise my right hand and say, i did not mean that kind of cult. i was talking about a theological cult. but let me add, if i could, that i think many of the people who are bothered with what i said about a cult are just as bothered when i sit here and say that mormonism is not christianity . so a lot of the reporters, they rushed me after my introduction, because they picked up on the fact that i was distinguishing a good moral person, like mitt romney , with a born-again follower of jesus christ . they knew what i was saying. they knew i was saying that mormonism is not christianity . and i think that's what the real issue is. not the cult issue.
>> would you, in general parlance, would you always support, what you consider a born-again christian for the presidency against any other opponent? in other words, that's your position?
>> no, i wouldn't say that. no. i would not say that.
>> you say that's why you're for romney -- or that's why you're for perry, you said.
>> no, chris , i gave a number of reasons i'm for perry, not just because of his faith. i believe he's a consistent conservative, i believe he's field in leadership, perhaps not rhetoric, but in leadership. and i think there are a number of reasons beyond his christian faith . and again, i think you've got a christian in barack obama , a professing christian, and a nonchristian in mitt romney , and i've said publicly i would vote for mitt romney if it comes down to that. but, remember, chris , we're in a primary season, and those of us who are evangelical christians , we have a chance to select a christian for our leader. and i want to remind people, chris , it was john jay , the first chief justice of the united states supreme court who said, we have as our duty and privilege to select and prefer christians as our leaders. having preference for christians over nonchristians is not being bigoted, it's a preference that we're allowed.
>> let me read to you the united states constitution , what it says about religion and political office . article 6, united states constitution , which many people believe to be divinely inspired. the senators and representatives before mentioned members of the several state legislatures and all executive and judicial officers, both of the united states and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this constitution, but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the united states . sir, how else can -- i know you're a fundamentalist, so let's go to the strict meaning of this term. "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust ." how can anyone of any religion read that anything -- as meaning anything else but what it says?
>> chris --
>> "no religious test ."
>> chris , certainly you understand the difference between government in posing a religious test and private citizens having any kind of litmus test they want to. are you suggesting that for me to prefer a christian over a nonchristian is a against the law or unconstitutional? that's absurd.
>> no, no.
>> no, article 6 is talking about the government cannot impose a religious test . you can impose any kind of test you want to.
>> of course. anybody can have any preference or prejudice, of course we can.
>> that's right, but you're misleading people in thinking it's unconstitutional.
>> no.
>> yes, you are.
>> no. i'm just asking you if there's a higher value in what you're saying than what the constitution says. people can say i'm italian american so always vote for the italian american . i'm black american , always vote for the african- american candidate . everybody can do that. but that's not a high value. people can always say, i'm always going to support somebody of my religion. you can't say that what you're proposing, which is simply to vote your religion is somehow a higher value than any other prejudice, can you? it's just a prejudice.
>> oh, i can say --
>> yeah, but it's just a prejudice.
>> do you think john jay , the author of the federalist papers and the first chief justice of the supreme court was a bigot? do you think that, chris ?
>> no, i'm just saying, do you think what you're saying is no different from someone saying, it's just another religious sect or cult or denomination that simply votes their nomination or cult or sect. it's just the same old kind of tribalism that we had in europe and we tried to leave behind. yes or no?
>> well, first of all, chris , your viewers have just heard me say that i would vote for mitt romney in certain circumstances. so, obviously, i have other considerations. but to your question, is there a higher authority than the constitution? for me, as a christian, as a pastor, the answer is yes. it is the bible.
>> you know, it's great to have you on, sir, and i think you're great. the way you talk on this show, i don't agree with you, but i think it's great that you come on and honestly reveal. you're not a tricky guy. not too tricky. thank you very much, pastor robert jeffress for coming
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44852981/ns/politics-decision_2012/
jcole jcole j cole j. cole j. cole joe namath austin weather
No comments:
Post a Comment
Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.